Cathy Kanefsky: Building Bridges, Breaking Barriers, and Feeding the Future.

"Yes Genius!" is a podcast that explores the power of affirmative thinking, celebrating the impact of saying yes to unexpected opportunities and the unknown.

This season of Yes, Genius will give you an opportunity to learn more about our 2024 Social Media Day Delaware speakers and panelists!

In this episode, Jess has the pleasure of speaking with Cathy Kanefsky, a passionate leader at the forefront of addressing food insecurity through her work with the food bank. In this episode, Cathy shares her insights on the profound effects of the pandemic on food access, the importance of community support, and how social media can serve as a powerful bridge for connection and communication. Join us as we explore her journey, the challenges faced, and the innovative approaches being taken to create lasting change in our communities. Get ready for an uplifting discussion that highlights the power of compassion and collaboration!

Transcript

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Welcome to Yes, Genius, a podcast from Epic Marketing that celebrates the power of affirmative thinking. In each episode, we explore the power of saying yes to unexpected opportunities, career changes, even the unknown, and the powerful results. This season, we welcome our speakers and panelists from Social Media Day Delaware. We hope you enjoy their yes stories and some digital marketing insights. Hello and welcome. I'm your host for this episode, Jess Burton. Joining me is Cathy Kanefsky, a dedicated leader who has devoted her career to organizations that make a positive impact. She's currently the president and CEO of the Food Bank of Delaware. Prior to her current role, Kathy held leadership positions at Nemours Hospital for Children, Autism Speaks, and March of Dimes. Her passion for helping others is driven by personal experience and a commitment to building strong communities. Welcome, Kathy. Thank you, Jess. I am very excited to have you here. I feel like you are a woman of the hour. I feel like of all the things you've done, I feel like the food bank is always prevalent. And as the woman leading the charge, I feel like, especially as we roll into, this is terrible, fall is definitely like food bank season. I think that a lot of people when they hear about the food bank, they think like, Oh, like the Thanksgiving drives and the Christmas drives. But I want to welcome you to our podcast so we can learn a little bit more about you. Thank you very much. I'm excited to be here. Awesome. So we will jump right into it. So as mentioned, personal experience and commitment to building strong communities drives you. So tell us about saying yes to your role at the food bank. So I, my whole career has been driven by very personal connection to mission, starting with my twin sons who were born premature. And the first job I took once I went back to work after my third son was born was with March of Dimes. And I think we'll talk about, you know, my, my, my journey and what happened next. But I was looking for my next chapter. I'd been with Nemours Children's Health as the chief development officer for almost 6 years. And I had joined a webinar and this guy was talking about discovering your passion and it was discovering your why. And I just felt like I wasn't where I was supposed to be. So started that journey and looking and really trying, and it was during COVID, so it was kind of a weird time. I think everybody struggled with, are we in the right place? But what was different and interesting about that time was, we did have the time to really kind of look around. We couldn't travel to find that, but you certainly could be researching other opportunities and job hunting, if you may be. But I kept kind of landing in different places with disability-oriented organizations. And somebody called and said, are you aware that the food bank's looking for their next president and CEO? And I said, no. And they said, would you be interested? I said, no. No. Really? Why? Me? The food bank? And she said, do me a favor and just look I looked at the job description. And that's when I actually said, you know what? Yes. I'll throw my hat in the ring here. And I will say that it was the best decision I've ever made. This is the best place I've ever landed. And I just feel like it's everything that I've done all along, both personally and professionally, has come to a crescendo here. That is, I feel like that is a story that you probably have in common with a lot of people when it comes to the pandemic and being able to kind of, and I hate this word because I feel like it got so overused in 2020 and 2021, pivot. Yes. Yes. And I feel like it's something that I think everybody kind of leaned into it because what's the worst that could happen? Right. So do you have any, so what do you kind of understand about your decision that you wish you had known then? Like, obviously you were like the food bank, like what, like why would they want me? So what do you kind of understand now that you're kind of hindsight is 20-20? Yeah, that you know what is a really great question. I don't think I've ever thought of it that way. So it's enlightening for me to realize that I did not know really too much about the food bank, you know, and that's that's where we are now constantly is trying to raise awareness of all the programs that we have. But even the very basics, of course I knew a food bank gave out food, but beyond that I didn't know how and I didn't know to whom, you know, and I think so many people are so judgmental when it comes to people that go to a food bank and get in line for food. And gosh, do they really need it? Well, look at that car they're driving. I think there are so many. And I hate to think that maybe I would have fallen into that category of just not understanding, so possibly being a little judgmental myself. I think that's such a good insight, because I think that there are, and it's funny, because I don't know that I've ever really thought about, like, I've always donated to food banks locally, wherever, and I don't know that I've ever thought of who's receiving. I just thought, I need to give. I don't know that I've ever thought about how it is received, which I think that's another interesting part, is that to reach the level of career that you have had and still be and still have questions. I think that's such a key part of being open to a new opportunity is still having these questions of how things work and how things operate. Yeah. Yeah. And I've said this a million times, but I do think the pandemic kind of put a big old spotlight on food insecurity and food pantries and food banks, you know, in a way that it hadn't before. And I can picture myself sitting on my couch, you know, watching news and watching, you know, wherever in the country happened to be being covered that just the lines of cars that would stay in line for hours just to get food in their trunk. And those distributions, however you wanna, whatever you wanna call them, they attracted people who were maybe for the very first time in their life finding themselves in a position that they needed help. It also, though, was, you know, the folks that have been coming to a food bank for years. So it kind of leveled the playing field and it made it OK to to ask for help and to get help. It destigmatized it to some extent. Yeah, I think that's such a great thing. Yeah. So what kind of you mentioned a little bit. So what kind of impact have you seen the food bank make during your time there? Oh, gosh, that's a it's a it. That's a humbling question to be asked because I don't take lightly the fact that I am in a position that I can do something or make sure that something's happening that's changing lives. And so it is definitely the tear in a grandmother's eyes when we're giving her food and she knows sh she's able to feed her he other, the other, we talk 2 kind of buckets, food for today and food for tomorrow. So the food for today is getting food to people, getting food, however that means. We talk about the distributions that like I just mentioned, but we have onsite healthy pantry centers. We partner with other agencies that people go to get food. We've got our backpack program. We have a home delivery program now that started in earnest during COVID. And it started with a partnership with DoorDash, which was just so cool. Because if you think back during those times when nobody was driving in your neighborhood, nobody was out. The only cars that were coming through were Amazon and DoorDash. Because they were bringing the, right? And so we partnered with DoorDash and DoorDash was maybe taking a pizza to 1 family, and they were taking a box from the food bank to another. So all the ways we get food to people is just fantastic. But the other ways that we impact people, to answer your question, is the Food for Tomorrow. And the food for tomorrow programs that we offer are workforce development. So we train, we have culinary training, we have logic, which is logistics operation and warehouse training. And we introduced a new culinary training called the Kitchen School for people with intellectual disabilities. And all 3 of those classes happen, there are 12 to 14 weeks here in Newark and also in Milford. So we have several of the 3 cohorts per year. And I don't think I've ever experienced just the pride in sitting in the graduations, watching these people graduate and knowing that they've got jobs to go to, they've got the certifications that they need, And they have the confidence that they so desperately needed before they came to us. And I've more than once seen somebody like, you know, so shy and so introverted that they keep their head down. And by the end, they're standing at the podium talking and thanking everybody. And it's just, it's amazing to see that impact. I have like goosebumps, I'm gonna cry. We need to feel good story. I think that like, that is I think the key driver in a lot of, especially in non-profit work, which we do work with a lot of non-profits, but even community-driven organizations, being able to not just put a band-aid on the problem and fix and address the problem that's right in front of you, but be able to take a couple steps back and say, like, how can we potentially avoid this problem in the future? I think II1 of our, someone that I bumped in with, she works in, DC with, like the homeless, the unhoused population. And she said, my goal is to not have a job. She's like, that's my driving factors. My goal is to not have a job because everyone has a roof over their head and all of the things. So I think that being able to have the ability to step back and look at not just the problem in front of you, but what's causing the problem. How can we set people up for success is just a whole nother level of amazing. Well, that's so interesting because when I worked for March of Dimes, that was 1 of the only organizations that did actually achieve their initial mission and that was to defeat polio. And when they did, instead of, you know, they could have just said, okay, good job guys, pat everyone on the back and disbanded. But instead they said, we've got this force now, you know, that is making change and positive change. What should we focus on next? And they switch their focus to prematurity and infant health, which was a pretty cool thing to be part of an organization that actually achieved its initial mission. That is amazing. I feel like you don't hear about that too often. Like somebody needs to tell March of Dimes to do a little reboot on that. Yeah, I know, right? Exactly. We've done it before. So your leadership has spanned, and you mentioned March of Dimes, you've covered a ton of mission-driven organizations. How has your personal experience influenced your passion for leading nonprofit initiatives? So I. Well, I say here, even at the at the food bank, there are times that I find myself needing to go through the NICU. And what I mean by that is when I worked at the March of Dimes, I have twin sons who were born 4 months early. I have a third son who was born full-term and healthy. So I always was able to say I could see the benefits of having a healthy full-term baby, you know, very, very easily by looking at the way all 3 of them were developing. But I, when I worked for the March of Dimes, I was in an office, you know, it was a chapter. It wasn't, I wasn't working in the hospital or with babies or with children. And sometimes you just get bogged down with, no matter what your job is with, you know, the paperwork stuff. And every once in a while, I would need that infusion of a shot of mission. And I would go all through the NICU. I would go to the hospital and I would go through and I would remind myself what we're doing. And so I've kind of, at Nemours, you kind of had that because I was in the hospital so I could do that. At the food bank, I would say where I get that gut punch the most is actually in those distributions. And being the 1 to actually help and put the food into someone's, We put them in the trunk or wherever they want us to put their food and looking at people in the eye and they're crying and thanking us. You know, it's just a kind of hard to put into words, but yeah. It's that, it's the boots on the ground reminder of why you're doing it. It's so, I think it's so easy to get stuck behind emails and documents and like the, I just think of like an Excel sheet with all the numbers that I'm sure that you have to look at and figure out. Yeah, budgets. Yeah. Who likes budgets, but it's part of it. The team meetings. And at the end of the day, you're like, I need to go put some bags of things in people's trunks and tell them to have a nice day. Like, that's what I need to do today. You know what, Jess, for me, thank you for saying that. Because it is that. But for me, I've got a dual role here. I get to walk around and thank and hug our employees and our volunteers and the people that are helping make sure that we get that food to where it needs to go, or make sure that we're training. We've got over 120 employees now. And that, to me, is you see on LinkedIn or the motivational quotes, in order to take care of the customer, you have to take care of your own. And I think I would put that right at the top with those we serve, those I serve, are our staff. That's amazing. True. I know, and I've, I listen, we originally crossed paths at the 90 and 90 in Delaware Business Times. And I asked you to be our keynote for Social Media Day Delaware. And as someone who works in social media and marketing, I'm interested in kind of learning a little bit how communications plays a role in your organization and work. You, in several times that I've heard you speak, you've talked about social media kind of being a bridge. So, can you tell us about social media's kind of role in your personal and your professional life? Sure, absolutely. And I certainly have a personal life that's not defined by my professional life. But I don't, I encountered somebody once that told me she thought it was kind of weird that I was friends with people that I work with. And like, I think it's weird that you're not. So there, but I have a hard time with them not kind of intersecting just because of, of so much, you know, so much of my personal is part of where I am professionally. Ask me the question. How did you ask that question again? Just how social media has just kind of played a role as a bridge in your personal and your professional life. Or from your personal to your professional and your professional to your personal. Okay, so social media for me, when I first, I remember when Facebook first came to be, and I had no desire. I was like, I do not want to be on the computer any more than I need to be. I fought email the same way because I thought it was going to take away from the face-to-face. But when I was with March of Dimes very early 2000s, probably, there was a closed Facebook, Facebook group called Share Your Story. And it was Families who had experienced infant loss or very premature babies. And it was a basically a support group. I don't even think we called it that then, but now looking back, that's exactly what it was. But everybody was invited to join this group and it didn't matter where he lived. So I, in my role at the March of Dimes, hosted a group of people that were mission families, family teams for the March of Dimes in California. And we were there standing in the lobby and I saw somebody realize that she was looking at somebody that she only knew through that group. And the 2 of them, their face exploded, they ran, they were hugging and crying because they knew each other. They were, and they call each other best friends. Years later, their families know each other, they travel to and from, and they've been to each other's all kinds of milestones. And I think for me, that was the beginning of realizing that, especially if you have children with a rare situation, whatever that is, if it's a disease or disorder or, there's somebody you're not alone. And if you find that person and you find them and you connect online through a social media platform, okay, that's fine. Right. But, I still, to this day, there are 2, 2 moms, one's in California, one's in Boston, and my son are the 3 boys with autism that had something very, very particular. And I won't share with you what that was, but we bonded over that and can laugh about it. I mean, it's not good stuff, but if I need advice from 1 of those 2, it's there like that. And that's pretty cool. And I would say that's, So that's personal and professional, right? Because it's the personal that's connected us. But those 2 are my Autism Speaks family. I've got March of Dimes people. When I sit and look at comments or likes or reactions on any kind of social media platform, My husband and I play a game. He'll say, who's, I have to go through and tell them where everybody's from. And they're either from my childhood, from my high school, from my college, from March of Dimes, from Autism Speaks, from Nemours, from the food bank. And it's, It's just puts people in a category of when you met them, but it's not a category of how important they are to you. That is such a good like nugget. When you talk about all of these buckets of people, it's where you've met them, but they really are just part of your community. And I think that 1 of the things that I love so much about this community that you've built is it's not just in person, because obviously the food bank is in person, the Moores is in person, you're working with them every week, every day, But some of the, even the more intimate parts of your community you built online, which I think we always hear about these like horror stories of meeting people online and how absolutely terrifying it is. But it's very much, there's also the opposite side of it, that like, you can, it can be used for good. Yeah, absolutely. I have a neighbor whose son just got engaged and, I, I was, I saw them and I said, where, so where'd you guys meet? And they met online. And he's like, you know, where we live, it's not really conducive to kind of going out and just hanging out. And they used to be going out and going to the bars, right? And then you find somebody. And that's not necessarily the safest or the best way to meet someone anymore. So you kind of have to pivot. They do. They have to pivot. So I do have a little question for you, though, because I, because I mentioned, like, being online is a scary place. It just, instead of being in your own little town and whatnot, you're now opened up to the whole world. And especially when you're building very highly sensitive communities. So I mean, you know, I think when you deal with any kind of medical diagnosis, those kinds of communities are very tight knit and they're very, because it is sensitive information. A lot of it, some of it is life and death. Do you feel like you are an advocate in using social media for good? Yes. Absolutely, yes. And so I can give a perfect example of that. And this is the time of year. In fact, this past weekend, we celebrated Sam's, he calls it his second homecoming. So Sam and Adam, they were born 4 months early. They were born in August. They came home from the hospital in December of 1991. And we celebrate that day every year. Then Sam had a brain stem stroke in 2018. He was, we didn't know what his future was going to be again, as life has been for him. And he came home in a wheelchair with a feeding tube, and he ditched it all. He would not know that he had had a stroke if you saw him today, but we knew it, and we've got these pictures of that day that he came back home, right? And so during that time when he had the stroke, it was about, it was a good 24 to 48 hours before the doctors actually realized it was a stroke because he had epilepsy and some of what he was exhibiting didn't necessarily, I think we were, I think we're, I am sure was kind of ignoring the obvious, you know, like we do, protecting ourselves. But the actual stroke itself, once we realized, we went in 2 different directions. My husband is typically the 1 that talks to everybody about everything and he couldn't. And I didn't wanna physically talk to anybody, but I said we have to put this out there because we need prayers. He didn't want anybody to know at first because he didn't want it. It felt too private. It felt too. And we didn't want to have to explain to people all the time. But that is when I said we have this army of people out there that we have that we have grown that absolutely love both of them, all 3 of our boys. But Sam had a fan base just because of who he was. And so we put that out there for him. And I don't regret it at all. But this weekend was the celebration of him coming home. So the past 7 weeks, we're getting Facebook memories of every step of his recovery. And every so often, the Facebook memory flashes at you, so you look at it. I would sit, I sit still and read through all the comments and all the people that were just pulling for him. And I would say that's a, that's a pretty darn good reason to use social media because there's no way in, you know, there's no way that we could have ever let the number of people know any other way. It definitely doesn't get any more uplifting than that. I think that I do love like the whatever, Facebook memories and like the ability to kind of see what you were doing a year ago, 5 years ago, 10 years ago. Somebody should not have let me have Facebook when I was a senior in high school. Nobody cared that I was in biology class. Or what you were eating. Yeah, or what I was eating. Actually, that stopped. Or I ate a track meat that weekend. Nobody really actually cared. Right. But I think that nowadays, that kind of stuff is definitely very, it's very community building it's very feel good and I feel like that kind of community is something that you don't necessarily, you can't necessarily find in person. Right. Well, you can, you can but it's really hard to have the physical conversations because you need that time. You need the time and the space, right? And that's where I think people just, our society doesn't let us have it anymore the way we used to. We don't sit down on the front porch and chit chat with everybody for hours anymore. Absolutely. I think that definitely, especially with the ability to name groups and name specific things, it kind of cuts through the, I don't know why everyone else is here. We know that, you know, we know everybody here has a child with autism. We know everyone here has, you know, maybe has a food insecurity. We know everybody here has this. So I think it kind of lends, that kind of stuff lends itself to being able to have those deeper broader conversations because you've got something that is a little hard to talk about that is that is the bonding factor for all of you. Yeah. So anyway, the next part of our podcast is a little bit of this and that. So I'll give you 2 things and you can choose between them. And feel free to kind of elaborate on them. I know people have always loved adding their 2 cents to it, just because Some of it is stuff they've never thought about before. Gotcha. So for this and that, we're going to go through some leadership styles and team building. So the first is, do you prefer to lead by example or inspire from behind the scenes? Oh. Both. Both. But I would say inspiring from behind the scenes can be tricky if There's not the example that you want them headed for. That is a good nugget to have. For team collaboration, do you prefer brainstorming sessions, where you kind of gather everyone together and talk through stuff? Or do you prefer one-on-one meetings with your entire team? Brainstorming with the group, for sure. Synergistic ideas are always sometimes my favorite. We have a three-hour leadership team meeting that typically goes closer to 4. That is, those are always my favorite when you have idea planning and they go a little bit over because someone had a great idea and then everyone else had great ideas that go along with that great idea. Exactly. Those are, Those are the best. I always leave those meetings being like, that was 4 hours of time well spent. I hope so, anyway. For motivation, do you prefer celebrating small wins or doing big achievements? Or doing big achievements? I would say big wins when it's the team or the organization. But when I'm thinking about the twins, we celebrate. I mean, little victories for them are big victories for many people. So we celebrate all the little ones along the way with them too. I love that. That's such a good 1. And then for your career inspiration, do you think mentors or personal experience are bigger drivers? Bigger drivers, personal experience, I would say. I really truly, I love being able to talk to, I have a couple of different mentors that I go to for different things and I never leave a conversation like that Thinking no that wasn't worth that conversation, but I think day to day today actually is my inspiration comes from So I follow a question to that. How do you do you have any advice for people in finding mentors? Because I feel like I've been to a lot of places where they talk, they're like, you should have a mentor, you should have 2 mentors, you should have 3 mentors. But there isn't a lot of conversation about how you go about finding those people. That's funny, because last week I was principal for a day. Recently, I was principal for a day at Ursuline Academy. And that came up, and 1 of the students was asking that. Like, how do you get a mentor? I don't think you can say, I need to find myself a mentor right now and pick somebody. For me anyway, mentors have become who I naturally end up going to because I know I feel comfortable with them. I feel comfortable with their values and their ideals are very similar to mine, their way is, but they might have just a little bit of something that's a little bit outside of who I am that they can help me kind of give a different perspective and see in a situation differently than I might be looking at it. And that takes time and it evolves naturally. And I actually, I should have said that when I was talking to the group of students, because that was 1 of the things they were all tasked with getting a mentor. I think you have to find that person that actually is going to help guide your way, and that could be next week and it could take a year. I think that's such a good point, because I do feel like I am in my 30s. And I feel like early in my 20s, when I was right out of college, I feel like everyone was like, oh, you need mentors. You need these people to look up to. And I always kind of, I don't know, I always felt like it felt weird being like, Hey, Kathy, can you be my mentor? I don't really know what you're going to mentor me on. But like, I don't know that it's ever it should be more of like a natural inclination to someone that maybe has. And I know someone had told me once, like, it should be someone who has, like, 5 to 10 years on you. Like if you're looking for a specific person, like where do you want to be in 5 years? Look to that person. Where do you want to be in 10 years? Look to that person. And it doesn't have to be, and I think for me, because I am like 1 of those like rule following structure type people. I wanted like, I wanted an outline, I wanted a resume of like, this is what I should look for in a mentor and here's how I should approach it. And I have learned very much that it is more so along the lines of what you've said. It's Whose opinions do I, who do I go to when I have a, when I'm at a crossroads, who do I ask for advice when I need to make a decision? That necessarily isn't like my mom. And that's so funny. That was just thinking. So, you know, for those of us who were lucky enough to have parents that were, that did serve as role models for us, I think a mentor is different. You know, and I would go to my mom for certain things, my dad for certain things, and I'm the youngest of 7, so my siblings also. But it was a former boss that was the 1 that really, truly kind of, because your parents and your siblings aren't going to want to really dig apart you and figure out what your weaknesses are. That's not their role, but a boss and a mentor sometimes, not that they're trying to find your weaknesses, but they know what they are and I think they help you overcome them and kind of work with them and around them in a way that a relative can't. Absolutely, absolutely. I think that is so important. We should clip this and send it to the girls that you talk to at our site. I could do that probably. So the next part of our podcast is rapid fire. So these questions I'm going to ask you and you are just to answer them with whatever pops into your head first. And they are very much silly and whatnot. Okay. So the first, Who do you text the most? My husband. Who is your hero? My dad. What is your favorite rainy day activity? Sleeping. Me too. Although we haven't had rain recently. We had rain last night. I'm tired. Ish. What was your favorite subject in school? Journalism. And then finish this phrase, The best part of my day is... Can I finish that with a story? Sure. So I could have also said Sam is my hero because of how much he's overcome. But he actually 1 day, he went food shopping with me. He's my shopping buddy. And it was a Sunday afternoon. And on the way back, he said, I can't wait to go to work tomorrow. And I said, oh, buddy, do you know how many people don't say that on the Sunday? Like just kind of holding on to the Sunday? I said, do you like is Monday your favorite day? And he said, well, I also like Fridays and I like Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Saturday and Sunday. I just like all the days. So for that question, I don't know what the answer is, because I really don't have I'd love to, you know, go home at the end of the day and pour a glass of wine and start getting dinner ready and everything. But I also love to wake up in the morning and, you know, get the day started. So I don't have I don't have an absolute favorite. Sorry. I love that. I think I follow a photographer on Instagram who does, she has this series of photographs she's titled, The Joy of the mundane. And all of the pictures she posts are in her own home. And it's her kids dropping pancakes on the floor and the dog eating them. It's her watch. It's a picture of herself washing dishes. And they're these beautiful artistic pieces of work. But it is quite literally something like, I'm sure today I washed, this morning I washed dishes, I'm sure you're gonna go home and wash dishes. And it kind of makes you sit and think about like the little things that we take for granted every day. And that- I will tell somebody that's complaining about the fact that they have to go home and cut their grass to be thankful they have a lawn, right? Yes, absolutely. 100%. You have a lawn and you have a lawnmower to do that with and everything. Absolutely. Yeah. But no, That's a good answer to that question. So the last part of our podcast is Chatbot Says. We kind of put in your bio, we asked it, we said, you know, you've said a stranger is just a friend you haven't met. We asked our AI chatbots for assistance in coming up with a characterizing word or phrase to help others get to know you better. Some of these are silly and some of them are serious and some of them are different ways in between. So I have 4 of them for you. The first is Kathy the compassionate, a heart as big as the world and a mission to make it better. Kathy the conversation catalyst, sparkling wit and endless passion, inspiring action. The third 1 is Kathy the conscientious, a mind for strategy and a heart for humanity nourishing communities. And the final 1 is Kathy the community-minded, building bridges, breaking barriers, and feeding the future. Oh I like that 1. I like alliteration. I'm a big fan of I alliterate everything. So awesome. I want to thank you for coming on our podcast. Thank you for being the keynote of our inaugural Social Media Day, Delaware. Thank you for having me. That was fun. It was fun. I'm sure our paths will cross again. Is there, if people want to find you online, where can they find you? You can find me on LinkedIn, on Facebook, you can find out more about the food bank at fbd.org and if you really want to find me by email I'm ckanefsky at fbd.org. People are gonna be emailing that email. That is okay. It might just be a little while before I respond. Well, thank you so much for joining us and I really appreciate you giving us a good chunk of your afternoon. Oh my gosh, thank you so much. Good to see you again. Thank you for listening to Yes Genius, a podcast from Epic Marketing. Join us again to hear more unique stories. In the meantime, find us on social media or online at EpicMC2.com. You can also connect with Delaware's digital community at SocialMediaDayDE.com. Don't miss out. Remember to follow or subscribe wherever you get your Genius content.